Tue Dec 4 16:01|||||||||Carmen Holotescu just entered
Carmen Holotescu: Hi, is anybody here?
Tue Dec 4 16:38|||||||||Patrick Fitzpatrick just entered
Patrick Fitzpatrick: Hello
Carmen Holotescu: Hello, Patrick, nice to see you!
Carmen Holotescu: How are you?
Patrick Fitzpatrick: Hello Carmen -- good to see you too!
Patrick Fitzpatrick: I am not too bad - you?
Carmen Holotescu: Fine, I had 8 hours of classes f2f 
Patrick Fitzpatrick: This workshop seems to be going well
Carmen Holotescu: I hope
Tue Dec 4 16:41|||||||||Stephen Downes just entered
Stephen Downes: Hiya 
Carmen Holotescu: Hi Stephen
Patrick Fitzpatrick: Hi Stephen
Stephen Downes: I'm curious, what time is it CET?
Carmen Holotescu: How are you, what do you think about our work together?
Carmen Holotescu: We have 15 min till 5 CET
Stephen Downes: I'm just reviewing the material so far, to get caught up...
Stephen Downes: 5 p.m, right? (I presume CET = Central European Time) -- it's 10:45 a.m. here in Ottawa
Carmen Holotescu: Stephen you joined only today, didn't you? You are so welcome!
Stephen Downes: Yes, I signed up last night but didn't get the change to log on until today -- I'm doing orientation for my new position at the National Research Council so I'll be on and off, but I will try to keep up
Carmen Holotescu: Stephen we hope to find more about you, don't forget to write on conferences
Stephen Downes: OK, I will
Stephen Downes: I am just scanning the list of resources about online communities... 
Stephen Downes: I have collected a lot of resources on them, see:
Stephen Downes:http://www.downes.ca/cgi-bin/website/find.cgi?matchstr=community&sort=dbs,key&dbs=Link,Article
Carmen Holotescu: Thanks a lot, I'll browse a little later
Carmen Holotescu: Patrick I saw you entered many times on Chat
Patrick Fitzpatrick: Yes - always looking to chat with people about many aspects of learning
Carmen Holotescu: Do you think Chat can be useful for communities of practice?
Carmen Holotescu: Do you know www.trainingzone.co.uk, they use very much it for meetings with experts
Patrick Fitzpatrick: Yes - for me to understand learning delivery is a great thing, the difference in attitudes, development, styles around the world 
Patrick Fitzpatrick: Bringing all of this together is very productive
Carmen Holotescu: Patrick, I suppose you have links with a lot of people
Carmen Holotescu: It's very important to understand, to have new experiences
Patrick Fitzpatrick: Networking is key to understanding this industry - most of my links are in Ireland and England -- this is a great opportunity to network outside with people like yourself
Carmen Holotescu: One year ago I had information more about e-learning in USA or Canada, this year I dig a lot on projects in Europe
Patrick Fitzpatrick: Do you see a major difference between Europe and America/Canada?
Carmen Holotescu: Stephen e-learning is on a large scale in Canada, isn't it?
Stephen Downes: Yes it is, there are projects in just about every college and university, a lot of private industry, and a number of standards boards etc
Carmen Holotescu: I undestand Stephen
Stephen Downes: Just reading through the discussion on community... some good comments & background info
Tue Dec 4 16:51|||||||||Claude Whitmyer just entered
Carmen Holotescu: Hi, Claude, nice to see you
Carmen Holotescu: What's the time at you?
Claude Whitmyer: Hi. Am I early or late.
Carmen Holotescu: Claude you are just in time
Claude Whitmyer: 7:55pm PST
Carmen Holotescu: It's 5 to 5
Patrick Fitzpatrick: Hi Claude
Carmen Holotescu: You work day and night 
Carmen Holotescu: You see till now we all chosed different colors 
Claude Whitmyer: Hi Patrick, Carmen, and Stephen 
Carmen Holotescu: What do you think Claude about our job till now?
Stephen Downes: Yeah, I like the 'choose your colour' option
Stephen Downes: Is this chat archived?
Patrick Fitzpatrick: I went for green because I am Irish
Carmen Holotescu: It is Stephen, and yes Patrick
Claude Whitmyer: This system has many of the features of the major marketshare holders. Good job, Carmen!
Carmen Holotescu: Thanks Claude, it's only a start, I use it for my online courses
Claude Whitmyer: Participation has been light, so far. But rich.
Carmen Holotescu: It's much better than most of the workshops I saw in Europe
Stephen Downes: Finished reading the online communities discussion... 
Carmen Holotescu: In USA the workshops are more practical, I like them
Patrick Fitzpatrick: I am finding that most workshops I am going to are very repetitive
Patrick Fitzpatrick: Here in the UK - that is
Claude Whitmyer: Patrick, when you say "going" do you mean online or ftf?
Patrick Fitzpatrick: ftf 
Claude Whitmyer: Interesting...
Patrick Fitzpatrick: I feel this has led to much confussion for people - the same messages given in different ways
Stephen Downes: What I notice isn't really in the discussion (perhaps I'll post a note) is talk about online communities as being centered around some set of activities
Carmen Holotescu: Stephen we'll have a conference on communitiess of practice
Stephen Downes: The earliest communities I joined online were MUDs... sure there was chat and all, but it was always set in the context of going on quests, killing dragons, collecting gold, exploring...
Stephen Downes: Carmen: yes, but that's not exactly what I mean
Claude Whitmyer: Stephen, sounds like real life <grin> ...every job an adventure...lots of dragons, etc.
Carmen Holotescu: Yes I know them
Stephen Downes: Yeah, there's always dragons *grin*
Carmen Holotescu: Please Stephen you are welcome to post your proposings
Stephen Downes: OK, I'll save my thoughts for a post then
Carmen Holotescu: Claude do you build the environments you work with?
Carmen Holotescu: Your team I mean
Claude Whitmyer: Sometime I build, but usually I use what the client has, ranging from Blackboard to Lotus Learning Space.
Carmen Holotescu: Blackboard is the most used in USA, also in Europe a lot
Claude Whitmyer: I thought WebCT still had the biggest market share in Higher Education. Have they lost that.
Tue Dec 4 16:05|||||||||Jane Knight just entered
Jane Knight: Sorry I'm late
Carmen Holotescu: Hi, Jane, welcome1
Claude Whitmyer: Hi Jane 
Jane Knight: Hi there
Patrick Fitzpatrick: Hi Jane
Carmen Holotescu: Blackboard and WebCT base on their communities
Carmen Holotescu: This is their secret
Carmen Holotescu: How are you, Jane?
Jane Knight: Blackboard is growing very fast
Claude Whitmyer: "base on their communities" can you say more?
Patrick Fitzpatrick: What is Blackboard?
Carmen Holotescu: On their site their users find a lot of information, can share with the others...
Carmen Holotescu: Can see best practices courses and so on
Claude Whitmyer: Blackboard has just announced a close partnership with Microsoft, has a lot of people worried.
Carmen Holotescu: Patrick, is a large firm in USA with a good e-learning product
Carmen Holotescu: Used in HE and schools
Jane Knight: They are all over Euope too ...
Claude Whitmyer: Blackboard, WebCT are "Course Management Systems" that help you build and manage online courses.
Patrick Fitzpatrick: Thank you -- I will check them out
Stephen Downes: www.blackboard.com
Carmen Holotescu: Why worried, Claude?
Claude Whitmyer: Fear of being forced to use Blackboard if you use Microsoft operating systems
Tue Dec 4 16:10|||||||||Wilson Azevedo just entered
Carmen Holotescu: Hi, Wilson, welcome!
Claude Whitmyer: Hi Wilson 
Patrick Fitzpatrick: Hi Wilson
Carmen Holotescu: Wilson joins us today, he's from Brasil
Claude Whitmyer: What time is it in Brasil?
Wilson Azevedo: Now is 14:18h in my Windows clock... 
Claude Whitmyer: It's 8:10am here in San Francisco.
Wilson Azevedo: Hello, Claude, Patrick, Carmen, Jane, Stephen...
Tue Dec 4 16:12|||||||||Richard Flyde just entered
Patrick Fitzpatrick: Hi Richard
Claude Whitmyer: Hi Richard 
Carmen Holotescu: Hi Richard 
Richard Flyde: Hello everybody, sorry I am late
Wilson Azevedo: It is a very sunny day here in Rio de Janeiro...
Jane Knight: Foggy and misty here in UK (Midlands)
Claude Whitmyer: Overcast, but the rain has let up here in San Francisco.
Patrick Fitzpatrick: Wilson - stop -- it is cold, wet and dark here in the UK
Carmen Holotescu: Don't mention that Wilson, here in Romania is so cold 
Wilson Azevedo: [Where can we get a log of this chat?]
Stephen Downes: Bad link in materials page... Managing Distance Learning - New Challenges for Faculty ... comes up 'file not found'
Carmen Holotescu: I'll verify, I know I did just before the opening
Jane Knight: Is that THE famous Stephen Downes?
Carmen Holotescu: A log with who is in or the transcript?
Claude Whitmyer: It's amazing how cavalier some folks are about maintaining their links.
Wilson Azevedo: The transcript, Carmen...
Carmen Holotescu: I'll publish the transcript
Jane Knight: ... of Stephen's Web fame
Tue Dec 4 16|||||||||Nic Nistor just entered
Nic Nistor: Good evening!
Carmen Holotescu: Hi, Nic, welcome
Stephen Downes: Um... 
Claude Whitmyer: Jacob Nielsen, the usability expert, recommends at least putting an automatic referral page where an old page was. He's worried about the web becoming cluttered with junk URLs.
Carmen Holotescu: Why so late, I saw you entered 1/2 h ago?
Claude Whitmyer: Hi Nic 
Wilson Azevedo: What a good surprise! You use Hurricane Electric too at TimSoft!
Nic Nistor: Actually, I dind't have the intention to chat 
Carmen Holotescu: Why, Nic?
Nic Nistor: too much to do for today...
Patrick Fitzpatrick: Hi Nic
Stephen Downes: Nielsen has a good point... there are some efforts at a solution, like purl (permanent URL www.purl.org) and makeashorterlink.com
Nic Nistor: Hello everybody 
Claude Whitmyer: What's "Hurricane Electric"?
Stephen Downes: Jane: Stephen's Web, yes, that's me
Wilson Azevedo: HE is a hosting service in USA. We use it at Aquifolium too (http://www.aquifolium.com.br/educacional)
Carmen Holotescu: Wilson, what's that?
Stephen Downes: Famous, though? Hardly
Jane Knight: To me you are
Carmen Holotescu: Stephen, I know you too, than; very glad!
Stephen Downes:
Wilson Azevedo: Carmen, it's your web hosting provider at TimSoft...
Carmen Holotescu: Maybe another Timsoft
Carmen Holotescu: So, me and Jane have to tell you that Inez Giles didn't answer at our last messages, so we have to manage the next conference alone
Stephen Downes: I like the Brown paper (), haven't seen it before, it's good
Claude Whitmyer: What's "Hurricane Electric"?
Stephen Downes: Brown paper, The Process of Community-building in Distance Learning Classes
Carmen Holotescu: Yes it's a very good one
Wilson Azevedo: OK, Carmen, my mistake: TMN is on HE server, not TimSoft...
Carmen Holotescu: Jane, did you try to call Inez again?
Jane Knight: Sorry, I didn't manage it
Carmen Holotescu: Nic, do you give online consultance to your students, on Chat?
Nic Nistor: moment, I'm on the phone...
Jane Knight: multi-tasking
Carmen Holotescu: Being from electronics also he manages that
Jane Knight: Can I ask how many people have actually managed/facilitated a learning community 
Nic Nistor:
Claude Whitmyer: !
Jane Knight: ?
Stephen Downes: Having email updates during this online conference was a good idea...
Stephen Downes: Jane: I have
Patrick Fitzpatrick: We have been involved in the development of a (type of) learning community
Carmen Holotescu: For your team or clients?
Patrick Fitzpatrick: For a client
Carmen Holotescu: Nic, you missed my question about using chat for online consultance for your students
Claude Whitmyer: ! = raising hand to answer question -- yes I have managed/facilitated learning communities
Carmen Holotescu: Please Jane take the managing of Chat, then 
Jane Knight: I see a lot of clients/universities who want to include collaboration and communities but I don't think they understand what it means - in terms of resources
Wilson Azevedo: I've found Lisa Kimball's paper...
Carmen Holotescu: Do you want to use ! and ?, maybe we are not too much
Wilson Azevedo: Please, point to http://web.archive.org/web/20010602115505/www.tmn.com/~lisa/dist-fac.htm
Carmen Holotescu: We have her at links
Wilson Azevedo: But it is out for now...
Claude Whitmyer: Thanks, Wilson, for the corrected URL. Interesting looking paper.
Stephen Downes: I like the I. Berreman quote in Kimball's paper
Wilson Azevedo: So this URL from Archive.org is where we can now find it...
Nic Nistor: Carmen... sorry... what was your question?
Carmen Holotescu: She is one of the first talking about metaphors
Carmen Holotescu: Nic, I ask you if you use chat for online consultance for students
Nic Nistor: We use chat, yes
Carmen Holotescu: Because I do with mine
Nic Nistor: But we don't have something like chat consultance
Claude Whitmyer: When I use chat, I usually have no rules during the first one, so that folks can see how cacaphonic it can get. Then I introduce guidelines for the second one illustrating what a few rules can do to improve the effectiveness of the space.
Nic Nistor: If my students have questions, they use to write me mails
Nic Nistor: Our work groups in the seminars use chat - with 4-5 participants at once, no more
Claude Whitmyer: Nic. Did they write you mails during the chat or instead of the chat?
Nic Nistor: Claude: they write mails anytime, day and night... 
Claude Whitmyer: Chat can be used like a lecture (one to many--only lecturer speaks) or like teleconference many to many.
Wilson Azevedo: I use to do the same, Claude...
Claude Whitmyer: It's dependent upon the rules.
Jane Knight: And expect an immediate answer
Patrick Fitzpatrick: With too many participants you can loose control 
Carmen Holotescu: Some sites use Chat for meeting with experts, but they colect the questions before
Wilson Azevedo: At the begining and at the end of the chat meeting we have a free chat...
Claude Whitmyer: "they write day and night" and wonder why it takes you so long to answer <grin>
Carmen Holotescu: Yes, we see it other way then the teenagers 
Nic Nistor: Claude, I use to answer right when I receive a mail... of course this takes a lot of time
Claude Whitmyer: Wilson, I hadn't tried the "free chat" in every session. That seems like a good way to let off some steam before getting down to the task.
Wilson Azevedo: But for the most of the time we use some rules like "ask for the chance to talk and talk only when we ask you"...
Patrick Fitzpatrick: Yes -- the great aspect of chat room is - you cannot be stopped from saying what you want to say
Claude Whitmyer: I started out answering students one at a time, but then I figured out if I bunched my replies up, sometimes I could use the same outgoing message for the answer.
Patrick Fitzpatrick: Everyone has a voice
Wilson Azevedo: Some chat servers let you moderate chat sessions...
Carmen Holotescu: No one now
Jane Knight: So what is the preferred/best way of managing a chat session?
Claude Whitmyer: Some commercial products like Placeware, Centra, and WebEx give you a lot of control over the chat.
Patrick Fitzpatrick: That is a good question
Nic Nistor: I'm afraid I have to go now... sorry...
Carmen Holotescu: Yes, they also print slides, images...
Claude Whitmyer: Adios Nic 
Nic Nistor: Claude, I am looking forward for your answer in the discussion forum
Carmen Holotescu: Bye Nic, then, see you soon 
Nic Nistor: Good bye everybody! see you offline 
Jane Knight: Wiedersehen
|||||||||Nic Nistor just logged off.
Richard Flyde: For those of you who hold regular chat sessions, do you find that your students/learners give better responses in text than they would in a face to face meeting?
Patrick Fitzpatrick: Limited people and specific topics to talk about. One host to controle the chat room, and invite all to speak 
Carmen Holotescu: In text but in conferences not on chat
Claude Whitmyer: Richard, I find the responses in Chat marginally worse than ftf. But asynchronous responses (conferencing) are much more reflective.
Patrick Fitzpatrick: Do you think people find it easier to respond in Chat that ftf
Claude Whitmyer: Chat's greatest benefit is that it offers a "bonding" experience that is difficult to replicate in conferencing
Jane Knight: Carmen, should we establish some rules for chat then?
Carmen Holotescu: Jane, we have to ask the others if they want another 
Claude Whitmyer: Shy people tend to find chat and conferencing easier than ftf
Claude Whitmyer: and it's hard for the vocal to dominate.
Richard Flyde: Thanks Claude, one of my reservations is that you miss out on emotional responses from a person i.e. Facial/body movement etc.
Stephen Downes: To Richard: *shrug*
Carmen Holotescu: Claude, don't you think the online interaction makes you to lose your shy also for f2f?
Claude Whitmyer: What's amazing about online (chat/conferencing together) is that people tend to make up for the missing nonverbals by becoming verbally more intimate more quickly.
Stephen Downes: Claude: I agree. I've seen it a lot
Claude Whitmyer: I think familiarity and a sense of safety helps shy people come out in ftf meetings. And chat can help with that.
Wilson Azevedo: Carmen, I couldn't read your reply to my question about this chat's log...
Carmen Holotescu: Sorry, I told I'll publish it or if you think only send it by email to the participants
Wilson Azevedo: Ok, Carmen!
Claude Whitmyer: My vote: Both publish and send.
Wilson Azevedo: I agree with you, Claude!
Jane Knight: Me too
Stephen Downes: Both
Claude Whitmyer: What do you think the odds are that we would each log on and choose a different color (it happened)?
Carmen Holotescu: You and Nic the same 
Stephen Downes: I think there's a formula for calculating that...
Claude Whitmyer: He's gone, so I couldn't see that.
Jane Knight: Color says something about the personality!
Carmen Holotescu: We can make a psychological portrait using the colors chosed 
Claude Whitmyer: And rust colored people tend to ...
Stephen Downes: My colour matches my website 
Carmen Holotescu: Mine, the peace, calm I search for
Richard Flyde: I'd thought of this colour as a rather fine claret!
Stephen Downes: Anyhow, gotta go, it's lunch time... see you all later & I'll try to post some notes in the discussion area
Patrick Fitzpatrick: My colour matches the Irish Leprechaun
Jane Knight: Good to meet you at last Stephen
Carmen Holotescu: Please Stephen!
Stephen Downes: Jane & Carmen, I'm putting a note & a link in my daily newsletter about this conference, so you may get some drop-ins
Richard Flyde: To Stephen *wave*
Claude Whitmyer: Bye Stephen.
Jane Knight: That's kind of you
Carmen Holotescu: Thanks & Bye
Patrick Fitzpatrick: Bye Stephen
Claude Whitmyer: Time for me to think about going too.
Stephen Downes: You can preview today's newsletter at http://www.downes.ca/news/OLDaily.htm & send me a correction if you see anything to be changed (what you see will, of course, be the 'under construction' version)
Carmen Holotescu: Bye Claude, talk with you soon, a good day 
Stephen Downes: Anyhow, gotta go 
Carmen Holotescu: Ok, Stephen, Bye
Jane Knight: Bye
Stephen Downes: *wave*
|||||||||Stephen Downes just logged off.
Richard Flyde: Thanks for your useful and interesting comments Claude
Carmen Holotescu: Like always
Jane Knight: Yes very valuable
Patrick Fitzpatrick: Bye Claude - hope to talk in depth with you in soon 
Wilson Azevedo: Well, I think my time is over...
Claude Whitmyer: thanks to all of you for this stimulating exchange. Later... 
|||||||||Claude Whitmyer just logged off.
Wilson Azevedo: Good bye for all of you! 
Jane Knight: Bye
Patrick Fitzpatrick: Bye Wilson
Wilson Azevedo: I'll read the log later...
Wilson Azevedo: Bye!
Carmen Holotescu: Ok, Wilson, bye, thanks for coming and hope to learn more from your postings, sorry if the scenario here was not perfect
Richard Flyde: Bye Wilson
|||||||||Wilson Azevedo just logged off.
Carmen Holotescu: Richard, Patrick please send me and Jane your propoings for fostering the workshop, if you have
Patrick Fitzpatrick: And then there was four
Carmen Holotescu: Yes, I wanted to say the same, but not little, not black 
Richard Flyde: Thanks for the enjoyable meeting. Patrick, I will see you in London tomorrow
Patrick Fitzpatrick: Carmen - can I ask what you are expecting from Richard and myself? - Proposings
Carmen Holotescu: Maybe it's time to go if you think so
Jane Knight: Well the hour is up ...
Jane Knight: But for me it was fun
Richard Flyde: Goodbye all
Carmen Holotescu: Bye
|||||||||Richard Flyde just logged off.
Carmen Holotescu: Yes, if you think we should add something you are interested to discusss on conferences
Patrick Fitzpatrick: Yes - Jane it was good to finally live chat with you 
Patrick Fitzpatrick: Carmen -- we will get something over as soon as possible
Carmen Holotescu: Thanks Patrick you are kind
Patrick Fitzpatrick: I got to go now -- Thank you very much for today - looking forward to the rest of the week.
Carmen Holotescu: Bye Patrick, hope to meet you again soon
Jane Knight: Bye Patrick - speak to you soon
|||||||||Patrick Fitzpatrick just logged off.
Jane Knight: Carmen do you want to continue to chat for a bit?
Carmen Holotescu: Jane, I have to go, I'm at the university
Carmen Holotescu:  Jane I'll write you a message about the next day
Jane Knight: Ok speak to you later
Carmen Holotescu: Bye, dear Jane!
Jane Knight: Bye Carmen - dont work too hard
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